› Forums › Forums › GENERAL DISCUSSION › Speaking of Doc Burgess and The Black Arrow…
jrstk.jrstk
Can some one tell me what the deal was that Doc and Bill Jenkins had worked out? I mean, Bill towed Doc’s car across the country for the Winternationals back in ’65, the car was labelled as Grumpys car with no mention of Doc Burgess.
Obviously their must have been some sort of agreement in place. I can’t image anyone saying; here, take my car, paint it as you wish, town it across the country and run it. What was in it for Doc?
dinoWe recieved a bunch of “inside Info” onhis from Matt Spiedel. Matts Dad Carl was Always Doc’s partner and we even have a local Newspaper clipping Right after The Grumpy Win that said Jenkins was Delivering the Car to Doc. And heres a Shot In Carls Garage of the Grump himself.
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dinoHeres the local clipping…got chopped off..but you get the drift (working on getting better copy)
….says right there…”The Car Is owned By Carl & Doc”…later Jenkins will tow the car to Duchess.(County)
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dinoNew “trivia” from Super Stock & Drag Illustrated June ’65 article : “The Black Arrow “name was used on Jenkins, Parents Boat.
jrstk
Looking forward to it Dino.
storm-king
doc bought the car from new from Bud Faubel (Honker) Jenkins built the motor, and named the car, as stated, after his Dad’s boat. I never did ask doc how or why he agreed to this, I guess he simply had no name of his own picked so he likely just went with it. Doc could not take time away from his veternary practice so Jenkins took the car to Pomona and won the winternationals. Doc found out Jenkins won some time later, as Jenkins had split to Hawaii as part of the winnings. He never so much as called doc to tell him. Each time Jenkins took the car to race, he had his name painted on it.
jrstk
Looking at early pictures of the car, including Winternats, Doc’s name is not on the car anywhere. Correct me if Im wrong but didnt Grumpys name come off the car not long after the Winternationals? I know Bill did match race the car as late as Nov ’65 (in its “altered” state) but no referance to Bill or Jenkins Competition was on the car at that point.
Not trying to stir the pot herel, just trying to make sense as to why BIll’s name was on the car in the first place, why Doc allowed Bill to name it? Why at a national event, Doc’s name did not appear on the car at all. Their had to been some sort of deal worked out between the two.
jrstk
Looking at early pictures of the car, including Winternats, Doc’s name is not on the car anywhere. Correct me if Im wrong but didnt Grumpys name come off the car not long after the Winternationals? I know Bill did match race the car as late as Nov ’65 (in its “altered” state) but no referance to Bill or Jenkins Competition was on the car at that point.
Not trying to stir the pot herel, just trying to make sense as to why BIll’s name was on the car in the first place, why Doc allowed Bill to name it? Why at a national event, Doc’s name did not appear on the car at all. Their had to been some sort of deal worked out between the two.
storm-king
Doc never alluded to me any formal “deal”. When Jenkins drove it, he had doc’s name taken off, his put on. the layers of paint on that car was staggering. By 1967, Jenkins was totally out, Bill stiles was building the engines, and Stiles performance was painted in the ‘flight’ portion of the ‘Arrow’ graphic. The car was white when new, then an odd sort of beige, then the yellow as it was when we bought it.
Doc has long been frustrated that the car has been know as “Grumpy’s” for most of its history. Make no mistake, Jenkins never owned any part of that car. The only deal I know of is that Jenkins simply drove it at events (in 1965) where doc could not get away to the event.
vbobHey
“The Grump”
‘V’
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paul-ceasrine
First off, I love the Doc, and hate Grumpy.
Question about the “Black Arrow”
According to Jim Campisano, author of “American Muscle Car”, page 22.
When Dave Strickler and Grumpy Jenkins split up in late 64′, Stricker got a
65′ lightweight AWB Dodge Coronet from Chrysler, and Jenkins got a 65′ Plymouth
Super Stocker, which was called the “Black Arrow”. There is no mention of Doc.
Now according to the Plymouth 1965 Plymouth Super Stock factory owners list,
a Mr. Bill Jenkins out of Berwyn, Pa is listed as the owner of the #12 car.
What goes on here?
They list 5 cars going to New York, but no mention of Doc or Bud Faubel.
One car did go to Connecticut, at Coppola Motor sales out of Westport.
Is it possible, like many other early factory Super Stockers, that a person would buy the car, but it would go to an established racer first, to prep it and run it to get name recognition, before transferring it over.
Does this sound correct.
Paul
storm-king
That is simply wrong information in that publication. What can I say? As I mentioned, I think Bill still has the original Bill of sale stashed somewhere. Don’t ask us to dig it up right now, we still have a bunch of stuff in storage since our move here from Oklahoma. Doc told me directly that he bought the car from Bud Faubel in either Shippensburg or Chambersburg, or one of those Pennsylvanian ‘burg’s. But I think Dino was going to talk to Doc again soon so he can broach the subject with him then if he cares to.
Usually books get information fairly correctly. But I’ve got a hardcover book on the early days of Pro Stock Drag Racing someone just gave me for my birthday, or Christmas or something that is so full of wrong information, misidentified photos, etc, it is an absolute joke. Every month practically, the major Mopar magazines call pictures of Dodges; Plymouths, and vice versa. All I can say is that any press is suspect. Some mistakes are purely accidental, some are editing errors, some are because someone wants you to believe the crap they are trying to sell, sometimes they are trying to distract you from what’s really going on.
Doc Burgess is the original owner of the Black Arrow, period. My brother was the second and last owner of it, period. The car no longer excists. Niether does it’s original Hemi engine, which we holed the block in at Conn dragway in ’68 and scrapped. (bad deal, it was just a little hole down at the pan rail. very fixable by today’s standards, but back then it was scrap iron) The original lightweight doors and fenders were sold to some guy out in Arizona, if memory serves me correctly. Bill would have to chime in to validate that, and the lightweight panels on the car that we sold back to Doc we bought from Jerry Stein of “Teachers Pet’ fame in New Jersey. I don’t know where Jerry got them.
So the bottom line is don’t get too excited about what these “experts” say about this stuff; it’s all suspect. Find the folks who were actually involved in the cars; and find them fast if it matters, they are leaving us about as fast as WW2 vets.
paul-ceasrine
Storm King,
Doc was a legend around the Dover area, and I would never question the validity of the ownership. Like I said earlier, we loved the doc.
But the 1965 Super Stock Plymouth factory owners list states Bill Jenkins of Berwyn, Pa got the #12 car.
Didn’t Chrysler have a secret rent-a-car program back then, where if you wanted a factory super stocker your name went on a waiting list, and you got a super stocker when the selected racing guys were done prepping them and racing them.
Wasn’t it true, that if you weren’t a big name racer you couldn’t just order a factory super stocker like a regular joe. You had to be put on a waiting list, and when one became available
then you got one.
List of New York racers who got a 65′ S/S Plymouth Hemi
* Robert Rosalie, West Hempfield
* Stan Newman, Cohoes
* Dan Aurigemna, Laurelton
* Joe Armour, Northport
* Don Peluso, Pleasant Ridge
One thing that isn’t there, there should be a S/S car for the lower New York area. Now since there are photo’s of Doc having a car in 65′, it must be fact that he did own it in early 65′.
Paul
jrstk
I love reading these threads because they usually are quite informative.
Theirs no don’t in my mind (and never was) that Doc was the original owner of the Black Arrow. This Ive heard this from a couple reliable sources, I just could never understand why it went to the Winternats with out Doc’s name on the car. Hopefully Dino gets a chance to talk with Doc and gets back to us on this. In regards to Bill Jenkins getting #12, this doesn’t make sense to me. Bill went the route of the Chevy II because he and Chrysler couldn’t come to terms on a deal. Maybe Bill was initially pegged to get a car?
In regards to the misinformation in books, yes their seems to be a lot of it. History seems to get skewed over time and one publication seems to take the previous one’s word as the gospel. Research is a b!tch but when you get to the facts, its great.
paul-ceasrine
Junior Stock,
The #12 Super Stock Plymouth Factory listing may be that Bill Jenkins name was posted on the potential owners list, or maybe not. A fact though, he did prep the car and won at
the 65′ Winternationals.
As for the Chevy II, the 327/350 HP A/Stock car, it was a 66′, and did not come into play until the end of 65′
or right after the first of the year in 66′. That car was a runner-up to Jere Stahl at the
66′ Winternationals, if I recall (as per documentation).
Still love the doc, hate the grump.
Storm King please chime in.
Charlie doesn’t surf.
Paul
