› Forums › Forums › GENERAL DISCUSSION › Speaking of Doc Burgess and The Black Arrow…
jrstk.paul-ceasrine
DINO,
OH NO!! Look what you started again. The “Black Arrow” is out of the box again.
Gary (SK1) and Bill (SK2) will be awaken.
If you look closely, you can see that Grumpy’s shop had asbestos wrapping on the steam pipes of his heating system. He also smoked and had no air reclamation system in the shop.
Probably no exhaust venting for the Hemi headers either, when the car was ignited 😎
Yes, I am an engineer/structural inspector. Was the EPA around then ❓
Found info on the car. Yes, Robert L. “DOC” Burgess was the owner, listed first, then
Bill Jenkins. #12.
I wonder who cut the check to Chrysler for the $4671.
The Plymouth S/S cars were built first. After they were completed the Dodge S/S cars were
built. Thats why there were no Dodge S/S cars at the 65′ (February) Winternationals.
The west coast racers gave Grumpy Jenkins a hard time (magazine documentation) out at Pomona. Said he was from Nowhere, Pennsylvania. Came out of nowhere to outrun the
factory-backed S/S cars. He wasn’t really a driver back then.
Photo’s in magazine must be from January 65′.
I’ve got a ton of stuff on that car. 😀
Paul…. Thats a double Napoleon for you. And stop dipping the Pizelle’s, your making a mess.
dinoDoc said the Car photos were in the back of his “gas Station” just prior to heading west…DOC paid the freight …all of it ,Carl was planning to partner in later ,but seemed to fade out of the picture. Italian ICE …was that good or what …
paul-ceasrine
DINO,
Where is the post of the Black Arrow with the magazine article about the tricks performed on the car (ie; suspension/leaf spring front anchor mount position).
Also, I’m, in the process of putting the Black Arrow threads in a chronological order.
Puts the whole picture together. From inception to the end. 1965 to 1968. MIA;1971
Going by all the posted and general information on the car, it looks like Doc Burgess got his hands on the car in March 65′. First race at Dover, early April 65′.
Many different lettering jobs on that car.
Wonder what that car would be worth, if Doc just took it after the 65′ (February) Winternationals at Pomona, and stored it.
If Ray Allen/Briggs Chevrolet SS454 pulled in 1,200,000 in 2006 at B/J Auctions, I would
garner to bet that the 65′ Black Arrow could nhave pulled in at least half of that 😯
PC
dinoPaul..Those Photos are down in Matt Spiedel Collection …I HAVE A bunch more ..not in greatest condition and not enough to make a gallery in ODF listings …So will post more later .Sure you want to put all the threads in order ? thats a lot of work, and A lot of “weeding out ” gibberish replies stuck in ,Off Topic. I have more tools to use as Board Administrator …to move and edit things. There is a point when posts or replies get unmanagable due to their lenth …Content would have to be “broken” up in like “chapter”replies to copy -paste-post At “New Location”. Whats Your idea. And why Arrow Only get Half at auction …how bout More IF not cut up to alter wheels .Better Check ALL on Storm King Topic for Buried Arrow info ..”Another Storm King” is one.
storm-king-2
Paul,
I could be wrong, after all, it’s been a few years. But I believe the first time Doc drove the “Arrow” was at Island Dragway, in a match race against Benny Cardillo’s “Special Formula” ( formerly Al Ekstrands “Lawman” ). Doc & Carl Spiedel took turns driving it. My father & I went down to watch & be of whatever help we could be. I don’t remember the date, or who won for that matter. On one run one of them lost by overshifting ( skipped 2nd gear ). It had the colume mounted shift lever with the reverse shift patern. It was still in the car when I got it in 68. One of the first things I did was replace it with a push button set up on a home made bracket. 65’s still had the cable link to the tranny so it was an easy change. I was really impressed with how well both Doc & Carl did going from a 13 second car to one running low 11’s.
Bill
paul-ceasrine
This thread has been too quiet for too long 😀
OK, one for you Rich (Mr. Bavarian Creme’)
The first race that the “Black Arrow” ran was at the 1965 AHRA WinterNationals.
BeeLine Raceay, Scottsdale, Arizona (1/29/65 – 1/31/65)
Bill Jenkins had his name lettered on the car, on the door panel, just above ‘Black Arrow’.
“Grumpy” was lettered on the upper portion of the door panel. Which was the first time
that moniker was ever used by him.
The car ran a best ET of 11.26, and qualified 11th in a field of 16.
I do believe that at the AHRA Winternationals, 10″ slicks could be utilized.
Paul (Yes it was owned by ‘Doc’ Burgess’, but partnered with Jenkins)
dinoPaul…All the Spiedel Photos Are now in The ODF Galleries
paul-ceasrine
DINO,
Thank you on the ODF info. We will be getting my father Vincent “The Shadow” that for his birthday on 1/14. He will be 74.
Bobby S. My father is 74. Now he wants to go back racing, with a 68′ 340 Cuda, since he found out Centalanzo’s have a 69′ 383 in G/S. Only 40 minutes away from Rockingham,
or 25 minutes away, with my 73 year old mother driving the 300C Hemi 😆 😆 .
‘Black Arrow’ info. The first race with that car was at the AHRA Winternationals
1/29-1/31/65. It did not win. Bud Faubel won the S/S event.
One-week later Jenkins won the NHRA Winternationals S/S event, at Pomona.
Paul
dinoSomeone sent this to Share …
“Because of new rules, there were only twelve SS cars at the Winternationals, stick and auto combined, all Mopars. It appears that one was a Dodge – good ole’ Wild Bill Flynn, one of my all time heroes! Unfortunately, Wild Bill was taken out in round one by Dave Koffel. I don’t have any pictures – so was this Flynn’s ’64 or his ’65? His AWB car, which ran at Dover, was a sedan, not the usual hardtop. Was this originally his stocker? Some more fuel for the fire in this blog!
Dodge and Plymouth each had two top stockers (eliminator won by Bill Lawton/Tasca Mustang) at this race. These Mopars were a combo of Coronet or Satillite hardtops with the minimal wheelbase mods (not the radical funny cars which were banned by NHRA) and some FX fiberglass stuff.”
paul-ceasrine
Presidente’ Dino,
Good info there. I do believe the Dodge S/S cars for 65′ were built after the 65′ Plymouth S/S cars were sent out. That is why no Dodge S/S cars ran at the 65′ (Feb 65′) Winternationals.
The hot favorite out there was Shirley Shahan in the H.L. Shanhan and Butch Leal prepared
Plymouth car, and factory-backed contract racer Dick Housey (S/S Runner-up to the ‘Black Arrow’).
Great show by ‘Musclecars’ if you can get it now. About Bill Flynn. He knew the 65′ AWB hardtops were having problems bending and buckling, after the factory ‘chemically
engineered’ the body units (acid dipped). So he specifically ordered a post-car, and no acid-dipping. He wanted the car to hold up while pulling his famous wheelstands.
Paul (Enjoying the warm-weather in North Carolina 😮 )
dinoAh So …In Moore County! Just visiting?…I’m Freezing down the road in Rockingham .
paul-ceasrine
Dino,
Yes in Southern Pines for a short stay. Heading back to Wilton, Conn. in a week or so.
Or when the weather breaks, which should be by mid-May. This weather is flat out ridiculous!
Where’s Al Gore when you need him. Global Warming 😕 I hope he chokes on an Ice Cube.
65′ NHRA Winternationals S/S and S/SA lineup. Missing a couple more.
1) Bill Jenkins
2) Dick Housey
3) Shirley Shahan
4) William Andress
5) Dave Koffel
6) Fenner-Tubbs
7) Lee Smith
8) Sites Brothers
9) Melton & Snow
10) Preston Honea
No 2% cars allowed. I think Bill Jenkins/Doc Burgess ‘Black Arrow’ was the only independent
non-dealership or factory sponsored car in the line-up. Correct Bill (SK2)?
Paul
storm-king-2
You’re the expert on that Paul. I never saw the lineup for the Winternat’s.
I got Gary ” We Were The Ramchargers ” for Christmas. What a great book, with a lot of insight into what made them tick. I always thought the sheet metal on the 65 A990 cars was acid dipped. Turns out they just ran thinner steel sheet through the presses.
We have lots of cold & snow here. Come spring I’m going to do a little research into the whereabouts of my old Pro/Stock Duster. I’ll keep you guy’s posted.
Bill
paul-ceasrine
Bill,
Thanks for the compliment. I’m just a good researcher. I think my Business classes in
college have finally come in handy. On your Pro/Stock Duster. You know, thats like looking up an old girlfriend. What are you going to do when you find her 😀
On the ‘Black Arrow’ stuff. When you see all those dealer-sponsored and factory-backed
cars out at the 65′ Winternationals get beat by Doc/Jenkins (2 eastern-based country-bumpkins), it had to be embarrasing for somebody. I wonder what was going on under the
hood of that car?
Paul
storm-king-2
Paul,
As far as the Duster goes, I will take a bunch of photo’s to share with you guys. I know it already had the front clip from the firewall out replaced with a chevy II unit. The first thing they did to it was bolt down the removable trans tunnel so you had to get under the car to pull the tranny. We had it set up so the only thing you had to get under the car for was to take the bolts out of the back of the drive shaft. 3 dzus fasteners held the passenger seat in. Set it out on the ground, 4 dzus held the tunnel down, put it behind the drivers seat. That exposed the whole back of the motor for clutch work. It had a rear motor plate so nothing moved. The tranny mount stayed on the trans, it was bolted straight down to the cross member. Pull those 2 bolts, slide the drive shaft out the back, & pass the trans out the door to whoever was helping. Didn’t even need to put a jack under the car.
I’m sure there were other changes made to accomadate the small block , hac k, choke, gasp, chevy they put in it. It’s been contaminated, don’t want it back.
Bill
